I understand what you are trying to say Gid, but people waging their "jihad" against us do not deserve the rights as American citizens.  Doing so will not help anything, it will not make "the world" love us again (they never did), and it will just not be effective.

No I didn't miss that part, danielost. Don't project your own lack of reading comprehension skills onto me.

What constitutes an act of war, though? If they're defending THEIR sovereign nation, how can they be construed to be waging war on us?

Look, I'm perfectly willing to believe that everyone detained in Gitmo is guilty of war crimes. I have no problem with that possibility. ALL I am asking is to allow due process to present the evidence and to allow the detainees to call witnesses in their favor. And while I believe that the rights we hold dear in our Constitution were meant to apply to ALL humans, our court system was not.

I would be happy with military tribunals, personally. I would be happy with the international equivalent of a court martial. I am NOT happy with indefinite detention and unsupported allegations.

We're supposed to blindly trust that the government is right on this one. The same government thaat shot Sammy Weaver in the back. The same government thaat incinerated Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. Our government has proved unworthy of our trust, danielost, and has proven conclusively that not only is it our RIGHT to oversee their actions, but our patriotic DUTY.

No, they deserve rights as HUMANS, I_D. Let me ask you a hypothetical: what do you think will happen to the children of those who might be held indefinitely? Do you think they will view us as the great emancipators, or do you think they will become the next generation of terrorists? I believe the latter course is more likely, and that instead of destroying terrorism, we are fomenting it.

I'm not asking these guys to be tried in an American court. Military tribunals are fine. All I ask is that they have the right to due process, to call witnesses in their favor, and to have their cases heard by a reasonably balanced court. That's not an American right, that's a HUMAN right.

I cannot condone the United States government for participating in actions I condemned as wrong in the Cold War Soviet Union, in the waning years of apartheid in South Africa, in the Guatemalan and Nicaraguan governments, in Vietnam, Cambodia, and China. I have a 20 plus year history of activism against this type of behaviour, and I'm not about to rubber stamp it now. I love my government too much to let it become everything I despise.

Sorry Gid...but don't you consider shooting, blowing up and outright killing of Americans and our soldiers too, to be a crime?

That's the whole point. They weren't!



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"Why" should we allow them these rights? Did they afford these rights to the American civilians they beheaded? They were caught in fact on a battlefield shooting at our soldiers in a country where most of those detained do not even reside.

What will they view us as if we execute them after a trial?  What will they view us as after being taught the propaganda nonsense that commonly happens in the Middle East?  Anything we do is nothing compared to the brainwashing that happens over there to children and adults.

This rationale makes us no better than them, drmiler.

Now, you seem to miss my point. It is possible that EVERY detainee in Gitmo performed these acts that you are describing. But IF THEY DID, we need to PROVE IT! Not detain these people on spurious allegations, not cloud the issue in rhetoric and emotional appeals, but provide a legal standard of proof in a court of law in an appropriate jurisdiction.

Why should we allow them these rights? Because we are Americans and because we hold the sanctity of human life and human rights dear. Because even if THEY do not, we DO believe that people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. The disgusting irony of the right is that they will demand rights for the baby in utero but deny them to adults who have been convicted of no crime (the disgusting irony of the left is the reverse).

Do you know who it was that taught me that Soviet gulags were deplorable, drmiler? It was the right. Do you know who it was that taught me that we were the greatest nation on earth because we treated people with respect even if they weren't born under the banner of Old Glory? It was the right. Do you know who it was that taught me that the system of capitalism where everyone has equal opportunity is superior to that of socialism where the masses suffer equally? Yep, you guessed it. The right. Now the right is demanding that torture, indefinite detention without trial or legal representation, and secrecy in a "free" society are noble traits. I'm sorry, I can't buy that bill of goods, and I won't.

Am I demanding these people be released? HEAVENS NO! Am I declaring them innocent? AGAIN, NO! All I am asking is that our government treat them with the dignity that represents our national greatness, that our government grant them due process and the right to call witnesses in their favor in a court of law, and that our government return those who are found to be innocent.

Every one of the Gitmo detainees may be guilty. What I am asking the government to do is PROVE IT! Anything less is blatantly un-American!

We MUST do what we have to as regards the GUILTY, I-D. But we should not universally assume guilt by association, as we seem to be doing. Yes, some of these children will hate us no matter what. That can't be helped. But what of those whose parents may actually be innocent? What will we say to them?

I'm disappointed in the right at this point, I_D. Many times I have considered joining the GOP because it's better than swimming upstream as a third party member. But as long as the rank and file of the GOP supports the government so passionately in travesties like Guantanamo Bay, I cannot bear the label of "Republican".

i didn't say any of them were guilty of war crimes

but we did declare war so they were participating in an act of war against us.

and most of the people in gizmo are not afghanistanies. they are people recruited by AL quid to become suicide bombers.

oh and by the way the taliban are not afghanistanies. they are from Pakistan